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Topic: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Does anyone use the modes for their compositions?

I understand the principle of modes, I can understand the different sound you get from each mode but I struggle to understand how I can effectively use them myself in my own playing.

What do you understand about modes and how do they work for you?

Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

whats a mode?

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Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

The modes of the major scale:

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

4 (edited by COPPA 05-01-11 13:46:32)

Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

I wrote this song on guitar, and i need help finding the key for it. I drop the high e to a "d". The chords for the song are open D, Am, Em, then for the chorus it switches to Bm, A Major, Em. All the chords are played using the normal form despite me dropping the e. Is there a certain mode i am using? or am i simply changing keys for the chorus? any info helps. thanks

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Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Hi Coppa

To be honest I am not really sure myself.

The verse starts with a D but the key of D does not naturally have a Am so not sure whether this is specifically a mode or maybe just a borrowed chord.

B minor is the relative minor of D major so I would suggest this could well be perceived as changing the mode to Aeolian or minor for the chorus.

Hopefully someone with a bit more theory knowledge can help you out further on this one!

Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Olly wrote:

Does anyone use the modes for their compositions?

I understand the principle of modes, I can understand the different sound you get from each mode but I struggle to understand how I can effectively use them myself in my own playing.

What do you understand about modes and how do they work for you?

There are so many ways of seeing modes, and most people have it wrong.

First of all, in one form, the less diatonic a song progression is, the more modal it is.  The more diatonic a song is, the less modal.

Then there is the idea of making chords modal, which comes from an understanding of that chord/scale relationship and what makes them different.  However most people do not have understanding of this past the triad level.  So you have Lydian being C and D or the IV and V in G.  But even then, you'll notice that modal music does not retain a sense of "stability"  The moment you play a D, which is the V of G, you've written a progression that want's to "pull" to G, and if you play a G as part of the melody...bam, you just got hijacked into G major.

So, a fundamental way to change that is to understand chords past the triad level, thus instead of C, a Cmaj7#11 (Since I understand chords past the triad level) is a more suitable and definitive example of a Lydian chord, and it cannot be anything BUT Lydian.  The means to acquire this knowledge is, beyond the scope of this post, and takes several levels of fundamental foundation development.

There are other ways as well, such as treat each chord change as a Mode unto itself, so for example, you could have a C Dm G  Em, and over each chord change, create a modal sound that changes pitch collections promptly at every chord change. 

There are also Pitch Axis approaches, as well as using modal interchanges.  There's no one way that modes can be used, however the theoretical basis of these approaches can be quite deep.

In our online guitar school, they are among the last things that we teach, primarily because of the foundation needed to understand.

Thus if I were to explain that the #11 is non-diatonc, but in essence preventing a min 2 dissonance and in fact is the same as the raised 4th, most would know what I am talking about, if they have a solid foundation in theory.  However, those who don't have this, would also not be able to explain what chord this series of notes created:

F Ab C Eb G#

And the understanding of chords and scales at the very least on the triad level, are very important, when it comes to using modes.  Most people who claim to understand and "know" modes, do not. 

As for examples of different ways of modal playing and application, So What by Miles Davis is in Dorian,  Flying in A blue Dream is Lydian, etc.  There are a few examples of modal playing.  Most guitarists see modes as scales, because thats something thats shown in magazine after magazine, and it's simply not true.  The solo for example, may be Dorian over one chord, but when that chord changes, its back to major or minor.

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Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Hi Instructor - this is a really great post - thank you.

In "flying in a blue dream" it seems more or a vamp - a repetition of two cords that change key maintaining the Lydian feel.

Where I lose it a bit is being able to maintain that floating feel of Lydian without changing key but without being restricted to two chords - perhaps this is not possible - or perhaps it is only by using chord extensions highlighting that sharpened 4th that makes the Lydian scale different from the Major scales.

I have always struggled to make anything more than a two chord vamp sound anything other than Major or sometimes Minor - which is interesting as in effect these are both modes in their own right. I am guessing the reason that Major is so different is because of the V - I pull that no other mode has and the v or minor can be changed to V so it has the same sort of deal.

Thanks again for your post

Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Olly wrote:

Hi Instructor - this is a really great post - thank you.

In "flying in a blue dream" it seems more or a vamp - a repetition of two cords that change key maintaining the Lydian feel.

Where I lose it a bit is being able to maintain that floating feel of Lydian without changing key but without being restricted to two chords - perhaps this is not possible - or perhaps it is only by using chord extensions highlighting that sharpened 4th that makes the Lydian scale different from the Major scales.

I have always struggled to make anything more than a two chord vamp sound anything other than Major or sometimes Minor - which is interesting as in effect these are both modes in their own right. I am guessing the reason that Major is so different is because of the V - I pull that no other mode has and the v or minor can be changed to V so it has the same sort of deal.

Thanks again for your post

You bring up some really great points, and it's clear you're on the right path.  The thing about Modal music is they are less melodic than tonal.  There are a lot of ways to play modes.  Your idea for adding #4 to chords, is also correct, and the ability to name them, is a plus.  But the more melodically correct it sounds, the more likely it will sound diatonic, and this is because the concept of modes is a tonal one and not a melodic one.  It's simply to reinforce the "home note" creatively, rather than to melodically create upon it. 

You're right about the Flying sounding like a Vamp, because it IS a vamp, the challenge to make it sound modal, and move melodically is not easy.  The fact is that 99 percent of all music today is only major or minor, and this is why most people havent a clue about modes.  Even So What by Miles Davis has an "unfinished" feel to it.

There are other ways, however to use modes and create some cool ideas with them.  The use of secondary dominants, IS modal, for example.

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Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Yes I am relatively familiar with secondary dominants though I struggle to fit them into anything I am composing without them breaking the flow of the music!

Another way I know that maintains the sound of the mode is to maintain the root note of the mode within the bass. This does work well however rather than expanding musical possibilities it seems to actual restrict them!

Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Olly wrote:

Yes I am relatively familiar with secondary dominants though I struggle to fit them into anything I am composing without them breaking the flow of the music!

Another way I know that maintains the sound of the mode is to maintain the root note of the mode within the bass. This does work well however rather than expanding musical possibilities it seems to actual restrict them!


Thats true, I call that Dronal Modal.

I think what you want to do there is experiment with each tone of the mode to see how it feels against that progression, to get a sense of it.  There are some cool ideas, but it's almost how you might view Indian and Raga music.  What I mean is that its typically a bunch of scales played over a constant drone and the melody is harmonically bound by that central drone tone, and thuse differences are percieved in as far as how it relates back to the "drone"

In an instance of Diatonic Modal you'll either play over a one chord static vamp or a set of chords using a mode that contains the complete harmonic structure of the static chord, or all the chords within it.

With this idea its best to completely understand how to build chords within a mode and also how to relate chords back to modes. This will help as a basis to build on:
Here's some examples. 

maj traid = found in Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian
maj7 = found in Ionian, Lydian
maj7#11 = found in Lydian
maj13 = found in Ionian
dom7 = found in Mixolydian
dom13 = found in Mixolydian
min traid = found in Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian
m7 = found in Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian
mb5 triad = found in Locrian
m7b5 = found in Locrian
susb9 = found in Phrygian

So lets say for arguments sake, we start at a triadic approach on a C Lydian Scale.

C D E F# G A B C

So of course you start on C as it's the Tonic, and sets tonality for the mode, right?

C - whats the next one that uses F# in the chord?  D major,  Then you have an F#dim (not the most musical of choices but its there at the Triad level)  And finally you have Bm.

All of these use the #4, at the triad level.  So you have C D F#o and Bm in C Lydian.

At the 4 part harmony level you have more options

Gmaj7, Though use of the G is going to want to pull this all to G, so use at your own risk of losing melody, because a D is the 5 of G.  Emin9 is a good one, where the modal note is the 9. 

Heres another diatonic Modal:

C / Em9 / D/F# / Am6 / Cmaj7#11 - C Lydian

And so on. 

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Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Instructor wrote:

Heres another diatonic Modal:

C / Em9 / D/F# / Am6 / Cmaj7#11 - C Lydian

So basically here each note has the #4 of the C Lydian (apart from the C) so in effect there is still a drone kind of going on just maybe in the upper extensions.

So I'm now thinking why is it that when playing in major or minor you can pretty much use all available chords without ensuring the root appears in each individual chords and it will always sound like major or minor - why is this? Is it that major and minor (Ionian and aeolian) are stronger modes that the others? Or does it all boil down to the strong pull or cadence between the V - I chord?

Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Olly wrote:
Instructor wrote:

Heres another diatonic Modal:

C / Em9 / D/F# / Am6 / Cmaj7#11 - C Lydian

So basically here each note has the #4 of the C Lydian (apart from the C) so in effect there is still a drone kind of going on just maybe in the upper extensions.

So I'm now thinking why is it that when playing in major or minor you can pretty much use all available chords without ensuring the root appears in each individual chords and it will always sound like major or minor - why is this? Is it that major and minor (Ionian and aeolian) are stronger modes that the others? Or does it all boil down to the strong pull or cadence between the V - I chord?

I think the answer is opinion driven, but in my opinion, music thats based out of the Western Hemisphere is engrained in our ears and cultures that the "Pitch collections" and intervals within those pitch collections, are very familiar to us.  Also consider that what makes a scale a scale is the incidence of half steps within the scale.  For example a Major/Ionian is 3-4 and 7-8 while Minor, they are between 2-3 and 5-6, so since these are different they are different types of scales.  But since they are also the predominant "music" that our ears have been conditioned to recognize, then you may have less of a need to "sell" these modes, 99 percent of the time.

Imagine if you grew up listening to nothing but Giant Steps by Coltrane, the key changes and melodic unions would have you perceiving other music differently, and it might even sound "bad" to your ears, even the simplest of melodies.

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Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

Phew!!
http://s1.postimage.org/2za04lflw/taz_01.gif

I didn't get where I am today,
by being somewhere else.

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Re: Using Modes for Writing Songs

^^  I hear you there, friend!  ^^

Yeah, it can get a bit deep in here, but a fundamental orientation with theory sure helps! default/smile

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