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Topic: Getting started doing lesson part two

Here’s my second part to getting started doing lessons, continuing from the first:

More dos and don’ts:

- Do let your students watch you play. Students like to see how things are played, it helps immensely in learning technique. So don’t be afraid to doodle around and jam with your students. My teacher at university did this for 20 minutes or so every class, and I didn’t get it at first.
- Don't be too critical. (Better to say "You know X well" than, "Oh, you really suck at X"). Don't give too much praise either, wait till you see some improvement, or they just get one new thing right.
- Do repeat, repeat, repeat;
   -for theory: it may be clear in your head, but many musical concepts are confusing and your student may be saying "Ok, yes, yes" but not really getting it. This especially applies to relative ideas (i.e. when the answer depends on multiple variables – for example: If you are in D minor, what scales could you play over the major dominant of Dm? These things take a long time to sink in.)
   - for technique: have them copy you first, and then play the riff three times in a row without a mistake by themselves. Tell them when they get it right. And revisit things that they have learned previously.

Here’s what you should ask in the first (or first few) lessons to find out what a student knows, and doesn’t know:

- Do they, or have they played another instrument? Do they sing?

Ask them to play:
- a song they know
- some riffs they know
    - You can see what they like, and a bit about their technique and knowledge.
- see if they can copy some easy chords you play
- see if they can copy a riff you play, this is mostly to see how good their ear is but also: can they bend? slide? sweep? finger pick? use legato style? Phrasing?

Ask them to play:
- Chords (G, E, Am, B7, #F7, bBm, C7/9, bDsus4/7/#9) Increase the difficulty until you find what they already know, and what they don't already know. Make a note of where to start (with what they already know to make sure they know it well, and some new stuff so they are getting their money’s worth.)
- Scales (same thing, C major, E minor pent, then harder: #C Phrygian #6)
- Ask them to read a rhythm
- Can they read a cheat sheet, TAB, treble clef
- Ask them how many sharps or flats in the key of X
- Ask them what the flat 5 interval of bB is
- Ask them to name the note or chord you are playing
- Ask them to tell you the intervals and/or note names in the chord X
…. And so on, this list is endless. The idea is to find the limit of what they know.   

Two more things I think are important:
There is a learning curve, young people learn faster. At about 11 people learn the quickest, a bit older if you are talking about complicated theory type things. So if you have a talented student, give them something that's a step or two up in terms of difficulty, but don't tell them that it's hard. If you have a retired person who always wanted to learn but never had the time, go for something easy, and be very supportive and patient.

I recommend not having your students pay after every class, or in advance. Do some classes, then mention money. The idea being to not stress out your students, you want them to keep coming back, and teaching guitar is not the road to riches, So you should be pretty laid back about money anyway.

Should I do a third lesson? Hmmmm …. Yeah!

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

It certainly sounds like you know your stuff when it comes to teaching. How long have you been teaching for now?

I must say  - once again - extremely useful post. I have been teaching for a while now and it has give me some really good pointers to give more to my students.

This I think is the great thing about the guitar community - it's not all about the cash when it comes to teaching. It's about bring the power of music to someone which is very satisfying!

Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

hello,
your tips on teaching sound great and like olly said it certainly sounds like you know your stuff.id like to know what level of theory and technical ability you think someone should reach before starting as a guitar teacher?any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

Hmmm, good question. I'd say that one is totally a matter of opinion.

Some great guitarists, Kirk Hammett for example, cannot read music (or so rumour has it). Would anyone in their right mind turn down tuition from him?

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

thats a very good point,thanks for the help.

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

Good stuff there sben.  But I don't agree with the last statement.

"I recommend not having your students pay after every class, or in advance. Do some classes, then mention money. The idea being to not stress out your students, you want them to keep coming back, and teaching guitar is not the road to riches, So you should be pretty laid back about money anyway. "


No matter WHY one chooses to teach, I would think that having people stiff you for your time would have the reverse effect of not taking the focus off of the money aspect and making you focus on it more.  Of course everyone should do what 'works for them' regarding policy, but advising new teachers to get paid after a few lessons is a recipe for frustration , imo. 

Simply put, if you want to focus on the music, teaching, and personal aspects of the whole experience, the smart thing is to set up some common sense policies and be a professional. That doesn't mean to not be personable, but just to have a clear policy that respects both the teacher & student. 

If you let students decide if they're gonna pay or not for a service you've already given, well a percentage will take advantage of that and not pay. And that's a quick way to suck the enjoyment out of it for a motivated teacher by allowing some students to make you feel as if your time-effort-skills were wasted. And thinking you might scare away potential students by asking for money up front? I doubt it, unless you're asking for the whole year or term, or your pricing is far above the industry average in your area. Sure offer an introductory lesson if you want, or a single lesson price so they can 'try you out', but make sure that is understood as well.

Sure it's about the money, otherwise ALL the lessons would be free. But take the FOCUS off of that by setting up your business side for success rather than disappointment. And that means getting paid in advance, and having clear policies. That's the industry standard, the majority of students 'get' that and won't be offended.

Those that are, you don't want as students anyway.

G

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

100% agree with above statement! I give a free introductory lesson and after that they pay for the upcoming months lessons. Nobody ever has problems with this. Most are actually ready to pay me for the first free lesson. Their pretty happy when I inform them the first lesson is free!

Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

These are good points.  I believe that it all comes down to how you view your services.

In my opinion a man is worth his wages.  The problem with the free lesson idea, in many cases is the Instructor is the only one that has skin in the game.  I believe that if something is free then to the person it's worth nothing.  In my school, I want the person sure that they are ready, as its an easier time, than some one not sure.  Many times that means not as dedicated, not as motivated.  I have had other prospective students in here and I tell the parents..."Look this kid is so ready to learn guitar, even if he doesnt attend here, I have a feeling that they are going to go out and find some way to keep learning".  These are the ones that are internally driven, they have the music in them.  Experience has taught me these are the students to have.  The casual ones who werent sure and arent sure, are often times not going to be the best when it comes to buying in and doing their homework either, or practicing, and they end up taking up a lot of time and you're always in this sense of trying to make it "hook" for them.  Sometimes it works, but its hard to get much from students with no sense of buy-in.

I tell parents buying it for their kid.  Make sure he has a sense of "paying for this", have them help grandpa clean the garage, or something, make sure they have a sense of ownership, and that they are helping to "Pay" for their monthly tuition bill. 

Nothing against those who do free lessons, but I have never been able to do that, because what I teach, I see is a service and worth what we ask.  The person that comes over and says, well OK lets do this, is the one that does well, the other that says, Im not sure...isn't ready, and I can't make them ready.  They can research me, talk to others and ask questions, but I see no benefit in a free lesson.

For one I don't know what their expectations are for that lesson, or the threshold of progress they will have expected or wanted to see.  I might also easily dissuade them from moving forward if they feel the pace is too slow, or basic.  But a beginner isnt necessarily in the objective place to judge how fast they should get it.

If they cannot hold strings down for example and that first lesson was, thump thump and blocked strings or something thats not overly exciting to them, they may incorrectly conclude that the idea of guitar lessons is quite dull and they are not jamming that Metallica like they wanted.  I think you need a buy in of about 2 months to really help them see the wind in their sails.  Anything less and they simply arent ready to do what its going to take, at least in my situation.

Id be interested in knowing what an introductory lesson consists of.  I cant even do that, on my own site.

Question for you, in that regard, Don, since youve now taken and finished our Notes on the Neck course.  You'd agree it does what it claims to do, and delivered well, right?  But would giving them lesson 1 for free, "sell" the average person and say, "oh yeah Im gonna keep going, heres my money"? 

In my honest opinion, you need to get a few lessons into it till you really see the benefits and progress, and where its going, and then it hits all at once "Hey I know the neck now, and I can do this in a couple seconds!"

Would you agree?  I"d like to hear your perspective as one who teaches, and as one of my students.  I can imagine the same with Lesson one of the Lead Guitar Phase one Module you're now taking, that that lesson alone doesn't quite "sell" the benefits, because they seemingly start out "basic".   Now you are on Lecture 2, of the Lead Course, and from the standpoint of someone that might be new, you can see why Lesson 1 was organized as it had been, because you have to have a solid grasp of Lecture 1, to successfully understand Lecture 2, would you agree?

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

I actually have at several points thought about why I'm bothering with the free lessons to tell you the truth. As I said already alot are already to pay for the lesson anyways so its not something that made them decide to try a lesson with me. The others I of course don't know for sure but I have wondered if the free lesson really made any difference in getting them in here. One of my last teachers I had years ago told me it was a waste of time because of exactly what I was talking about. It made no difference in attracting new students.

Maybe instead of a free lesson I should try presenting it as they can come in and try a lesson without committing to the whole month. How do you do it at your physical school Sean?

10 (edited by Instructor 03-12-10 18:37:43)

Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

At the physical school, first of all, we don't have many vacancies usually.  This wasn't something that came about overnight, it's built over the last 10 years to where it's become that popular, and we dont have a strong dropout rate at all.  So I say that, because to be fair, the demand to get into the place makes it easy to fill locally, when we have an open slot, which is rare.

But before I accept a student, I schedule a free evaluation session with the student.  I am actually qualifying that student to see if they are suitable for what we teach.  I sit down with them, be they a kid or adult, and I ask them why they want lessons.  It may seem like a strange question, but you can get a lot from people.  You can also tell how ready they are.  If they shrug and say "I dunno", they may be a little shy, they may need some extra handling to get them to open up, for example.  I can guage a lot about what they might be as a student.  If on the other hand they are clear and articulate about their goals, and why they are there, that tells me something as well about their expectations.

Then I go through the program, and what's expected of them.  I ask the parents "how are they at doing their homework?"  "Do they have competing interests?"  It surprises a lot of people because I'm not selling them on what we do, but I have them sell me on what they can bring to the program.  I demonstrate chord skills.  If anyone in the group has any knowledge of music I say, "Name any chord"  sometimes you get a guy that has played guitar for years, and knows a few exotic chords, so he says "G Major 9" - when I say "G B D F# and A" a half second later, they look at me like I just hit them with a truck, as they realize that even "THEY" as musicians cannot replicate that.

The reputation of the school and our students actually help "sell" the place, so in my case it's not like other instructors, and I realize this.  But even before we became the place others wanted to attend, I was doing these things, as far as qualifying the student.

I'll also ask them if they have any questions, that we can answer, because we want to make sure that they are sure about this.  If I have doubts about a student, I will say so.  If I am not sure if this is the fad of the week, I'll tell the student.  I never "close" a sale, I want to simply provide them the information, so that they can go and make an informed decision.  Even if they don't sign up, I want them to leave knowing they were treated honestly and that we truly care about helping them.  And that's what I do.  If they say nothing, I say, "Well it looks like we can help them, are there any other questions we can answer?"

Sometimes they may say "I have to think about it" and I say, "great, well if we can help you out let us know".  We dont want their money if we cant help them.  And everyone knows that sometimes a parent may sign up a kid and the parents more interested than the kid, and no one wants to see a parent burn their money on the kid when the kids not motivated or its "flavor of the week".  So we will step in and say, "No, if he can't help pay for this, he's not ready".  If that kid were to enroll, and then drop out, because he was not ready, it DOES reflect badly upon your school, as if you somehow failed.  "Yeah we enrolled Little Johnny at the Academy, but he just wasn't doing the homework, so we took him out"

This could mean a lot of things to the person:

Johnny's into too many things and not ready to commit to one interest
Johnnys lazy
The Teacher failed to connect with Johnny
The Teacher failed to motivate Johnny
Johnny didnt like the guitar or that it required more than he was willing to give

The listener might have also percieved that the Teacher had a weak personality or was boring, just as easily as they might have thought, "Johnny's not ready". 

And I don't want that.  I want to reach every student that enrolls and letting one go thats not ready is sometimes the best way to go.  So I suppose in a way, I dislike selling.  I am passionate and I believe in what we do, and Im 1000 percent convinced that when they enroll, they are at the best place that I can think of to learn.  So, my role, is to answer those questions, but let the people decide.  I don't like sales and I don't like the pressure of needing a sale, so I just never close, or care if they sign up or not, because I only want people in the program that are a good fit FOR the program, and who feel like its a good fit for them.

And to be fair, our local reputation is so strong that people already have heard about us by the time they've come in, and we are more THE place to go to learn, and so many times they hear, "We are not accepting any students in person, but here's information about our online enrollment".  Which was a major reason why I had to bring the school online...after a while, a 6 month waiting list became pointless.

But I still think its better in our case, and its something that Ive done since the beginning is, schedule an evaluation for the student, 15-20 minutes at most.  Have them bring their guitar, or what they will be learning on.  I sight the neck, measure the action, look at their fingers, size them by having them show me what they know or don't etc, and then make any recommendations, be it a neck adjustment etc.  Someone told me after I had been doing this for several months, (and I didnt realize it), but when you do this, the parents are very impressed that you as a teacher, know your stuff, and they perceive you more as an "expert" than a "teacher" because of your willingness to check out their instrument, they dont think you're simply out to take their money.

Which I think is a good thing!

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

Instructor wrote:

Don, since youve now taken and finished our Notes on the Neck course

Don - How did you find the course?

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

I found the link in the music theory section under rock and blues guitar academy. I'm a bit beyond the stuff presented right now but after reading some of instructors post I'm looking forward to getting to the advanced courses.

I really started it because I was curious how he taught his students. I'm kind of addicted to courses, books and things like that. I have probably hundreds of instructional books which I only look at about 10% of them. As far as Sean's (Instructor) course I'm really enjoying the journey even though I already know the material. I have already been using his naming the notes exercises with some of my students.

13 (edited by Instructor 04-12-10 23:29:11)

Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

don p wrote:

I found the link in the music theory section under rock and blues guitar academy. I'm a bit beyond the stuff presented right now but after reading some of instructors post I'm looking forward to getting to the advanced courses.

I really started it because I was curious how he taught his students. I'm kind of addicted to courses, books and things like that. I have probably hundreds of instructional books which I only look at about 10% of them. As far as Sean's (Instructor) course I'm really enjoying the journey even though I already know the material. I have already been using his naming the notes exercises with some of my students.

Don,

I understand that you already have/had a handle on the Notes on the Neck, as you are also a teacher and have formal study background.

My question would be, from the eyes of a person who maybe doesn't know the notes on the neck, or hasn't learned, or maybe has tried but hasn't really gotten where they can do it almost immediately, what would you say concerning the Notes on the Neck course, and approach, from that perspective?

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

As I said I have already started using this approach with some of my students and they all immediately nailed the first part. After going through the module already I can see the same type of success with adding the additional notes.

A couple of my more advance students who already know the notes on the Low E and A notes pretty well I was able to start from their and take the next step and they picked up on it very quickly.

I'd say it's a very simple way to learn the notes on the neck whether you are a total beginner or and advanced player. You will still need to work at it but it's an easy concept to understand!

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

Instructor wrote:

My question would be, from the eyes of a person who maybe doesn't know the notes on the neck, or hasn't learned, or maybe has tried but hasn't really gotten where they can do it almost immediately, what would you say concerning the Notes on the Neck course, and approach, from that perspective?

So can you elaborate more on your approach for learning the notes on the neck or is this information for paying customers only?

Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

Olly,

It would be hard to do so, because it's the method that makes it possible.  The lessons are taught so that even someone that has never played the guitar, can learn it.  Its geared towards the absolute beginner.  Where I think it excels is in the following ways.

1.  It's made very easy to follow, and understand. 
2.  It isn't time intensive.  The approach works quickly.
3.  The learning outcomes are very hard to achieve under any other conditions

a.  The student is able to play a note on any string, and name it within a half second to two seconds.

b.  The student can locate any note on any string, eg. "Find and Play Bb on the 4th string", in about as quickly, .5 to 2 seconds.

Knowing all the notes on the neck, where you can almost immediately see them, in my opinion is the ONLY way that any serious study of music theory can be started, where application to the guitar is an objective. 

You can learn theory, but if you want to have a hell of a time trying to make use of it, make sure that you are as weak as possible with knowing the neck/where the notes are found on the guitar.

At the Academy, the Notes on the Neck is the first step to understanding the basics of Music (ss well as notes, the student learns fundamental musical principles and understands them).

I'll be honest, this course takes everyone by surprise.  Those that have played for years and stunned by how well this works, and yet it's profoundly simple.  I have developed this over hundreds of students, and its been refined hundreds of times over.   

Music is static, the rules dont change,  the notes are the notes and the locations on the fretboard are where they always are.  I am not inventing anything new, but where this program works is in how its taught, and I could count on both hands how many people have said, "Man why didn't I ever think of it?"  I think the reason that no one thought of it, is there are certain things that we've been conditioned to accept are already being taught as well as they can possibly be taught, after all, if this wasn't the case, we assume someone would have found it by now.  So we aren't challenged to look further, because we don't suspect that there are better ways.

This is where I guess I differed.  I was dissatisfied with conventional ways of doing things, and that resulted in my own search and subsequent breakthroughs, the foundation of which many years later became the teaching curricula of my Guitar Academy.

Don, is barely into the Lead portion, but without tipping my approach I am sure he would tell you that this stuff isn't found out there, in books videos, magazines.  As crazy as that might sound, it's also true.   The deeper he gets, the more he's going to realize how off the beaten path this approach goes.  Some people consider me a genius because of this.  I'm not comfortable with this.

I think I was just fortunate to be in a place where I was forced to dig out my own ways of understanding, in such a way that I uncovered an inherent logic to the guitar.

The old saying, necessity breeds invention, was definitely true in my case.  In my situation, the journey took 12 years.

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Getting started doing lesson part two

Guido wrote:

Good stuff there sben.  But I don't agree with the last statement.

"I recommend not having your students pay after every class, or in advance. Do some classes, then mention money. The idea being to not stress out your students, you want them to keep coming back, and teaching guitar is not the road to riches, So you should be pretty laid back about money anyway. "




G

I completely disagree with this statement. I am a full time guitar teacher, this is how i make my living. I advertise, students reply from advert. When they come for first lesson they know how much to pay, and pay at the end of the lesson. I have students coming now for 3 years or more, and all are happy to pay on time every time.

Just Another Geetarman

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