Topic: Help with my theory

Hey guys,hows it going?
My first post default/big_smile Im hoping some nice person will be able to help me out with this.

Ok,I have asked for some help on another forum but alas,they aren`t guiding me towards the goal I want....in other words no-ones replied the unhelpful bastards.:twisted:
Anyways,Im hoping I can get some guidance on how my theorys going.
This is what I know (or remember...)-

Major scale-is a diatonic scale and has 7 tones (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1).The pattern to make the major scale is W W H W W W H (W=whole step,H=half step).

Natural Minor scale-is also a 7 step scale but has flat tones to make it minor (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1).The pattern for to make the minor scale is W H W W H W W.

Minor Pentanic-is a 5 tone scale (1 b3 4 5 b7 1).

A minor pentatonic-is a 5 tone scale same as minor pentatonic but is rooted on the A string.

Building chords from the major/minor scale-you can build chords from the major and minor scale by building up on the thirds of the scale from each note of the scale,so you will have minor thirds for a minor chord (3 frets) and major thirds for a major chord (4 frets).
Then you add the fifths in too.

The I IV and V chords in a major key are major chords,ii iii and iv are minor and vii is diminished (although it can be flatted and lowered one step to make a bVII chord to become the Mixolydian mode).

In a minor key III,VI and VII are major chords,i,ii,iv and v are minor.

You can use these formulas to make chords in any key,starting on any root (all these chords are barre chords by the way,although power chords will obviously follow the same pattern without the thirds).

I also know the major and minor triads,major=1,3 and 5.
Minor=1,b3 and 5.

There,so hows all that?

Now,my main problem is that even though I know all this (hopefully its right....) I cant figure out how to put it all together.
Its like having all the parts to a jigsaw but no idea what to do.
Bear in mind Ive learnt all this from my Troy Stetina books on my own,no teacher.

Also,Im trying to get into transcribing.Im starting with just the beats of songs for the moment then Im gonna try and figure out what they are playing.
One thing thats confusing me though is how do I figure out the key of a song?
In my Metal Rythm 2 book I have to go back through both volumes and write in all the chord progression numerals,no real worry but I cant figure out how to get the right key!!

Any and all help is much appreciated.

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Re: Help with my theory

Laces wrote:

Hey guys,hows it going?
My first post default/big_smile Im hoping some nice person will be able to help me out with this.

Ok,I have asked for some help on another forum but alas,they aren`t guiding me towards the goal I want....in other words no-ones replied the unhelpful bastards.:twisted:
Anyways,Im hoping I can get some guidance on how my theorys going.
This is what I know (or remember...)-

Major scale-is a diatonic scale and has 7 tones (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1).The pattern to make the major scale is W W H W W W H (W=whole step,H=half step).

Natural Minor scale-is also a 7 step scale but has flat tones to make it minor (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1).The pattern for to make the minor scale is W H W W H W W.

Minor Pentanic-is a 5 tone scale (1 b3 4 5 b7 1).

A minor pentatonic-is a 5 tone scale same as minor pentatonic but is rooted on the A string.

Building chords from the major/minor scale-you can build chords from the major and minor scale by building up on the thirds of the scale from each note of the scale,so you will have minor thirds for a minor chord (3 frets) and major thirds for a major chord (4 frets).
Then you add the fifths in too.

The I IV and V chords in a major key are major chords,ii iii and iv are minor and vii is diminished (although it can be flatted and lowered one step to make a bVII chord to become the Mixolydian mode).

In a minor key III,VI and VII are major chords,i,ii,iv and v are minor.

You can use these formulas to make chords in any key,starting on any root (all these chords are barre chords by the way,although power chords will obviously follow the same pattern without the thirds).

I also know the major and minor triads,major=1,3 and 5.
Minor=1,b3 and 5.

There,so hows all that?

Now,my main problem is that even though I know all this (hopefully its right....) I cant figure out how to put it all together.
Its like having all the parts to a jigsaw but no idea what to do.
Bear in mind Ive learnt all this from my Troy Stetina books on my own,no teacher.

Also,Im trying to get into transcribing.Im starting with just the beats of songs for the moment then Im gonna try and figure out what they are playing.
One thing thats confusing me though is how do I figure out the key of a song?
In my Metal Rythm 2 book I have to go back through both volumes and write in all the chord progression numerals,no real worry but I cant figure out how to get the right key!!

Any and all help is much appreciated.

It sounds like the fundamental flaw with most approaches to theory.  You cant use it because you dont have command of the instrument, to be able to go to any note and play it instantly on any string.  If you cant use it on the guitar, it's almost useless.  You're on the right path and your understanding is correct, but in my opinion, and this is considering the fact that I know things about teaching this, that you won't learning from a book, this method is outdated, pointless and clunky, but its the best they have to work with and its been repeated for years, without any challenge or question.  Its assumed "this" is how you learn theory.  I say "this" is how you learn theory if you want it to take forever, become frustrated, or just pain NOT learn it, because the time and costs and learning curve is too steep and out of reach for most "self taught" people.

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Help with my theory

I'll have to go back and look when I get a chance but Troy explains all this pretty thoroughly. You have the understanding of how this all works just try creating some progressions with this knowledge and see how it works. You should get his writing killer songs downloadable book. The songs are kind of outdated but he rips apart the songs and tells you the theory behind it. Fretboard Mastery would be another good one to check out. It's all there. Your just missing something. I'll take a look at the book when I get a chance and get back to you.

4 (edited by Instructor 03-12-10 13:49:53)

Re: Help with my theory

Theory is best understood in terms of the Major Scale, as it is the wellspring by which all parts of it are ultimately evaluated.

So that understood, lets also understand that by using this, the "key"" of a song is best expressed by, "What note does everything seem to want to resolve to?"  Let's take a quick rundown of a song by Troy, "Open Fire" and see what we learn.

We see that the song seems to gravitate towards the A.

So what is the A major scale?

Its A B C# D E F# G# A

Thus the chords in A Major are, A Bm C#m D E  F#m G#o and back to A

The chords in Open fire are A C D E G

So in the Key of A we don't have a perfect match.  Does this mean it's wrong?  Not at all, but if you tried to apply the chords of a Major to the song, it wouldnt sound right.

So what do we do now?

Let's consider 2 approaches, first lets keep A and analyse the chords as such:

A is the I 
C is a bIII 
G is a bVII 
D is the IV
and E is the V.

That's one way that we can do this and its perfectly valid.

However another way we can do this, is to look at the song as possibly being in A minor.

The difference of a Minor scale to the A Major scale are the modification of the notes in the scale, -  b3, a b6 and a b7.

Notice in my above analysis I called the C a bIII?  Thats right in line with A minor, isn't it, as is the G being a bVII.  So depending upon your understanding of theory and harmonic notation (Honestly, to start transcribing using theory, you should definitely have a handle on Roman Numeral Notation) you should be able to identify this "key" is in A minor.

Now when you plug in the chords in trying to work out what the changes are you will find they all line up.

Let me help you further with a few loose rules of thumb.  Rock, and metal, most times will be in minor keys, the same with blues.  The only time you might question this, is in instances where the first chord is clearly a Major Chord, say a Strummed G to start out Knocking on Heavens Door, Or a D in Sweet Child of Mine, (also outlined by it's arpeggio-like main riff).

Many times a song will change keys, and its important to have the experience to discern this.  Theory helps, but you have to break down and analyze songs a while using it to hear it.  For example, Sweet Child of Mine, once again, in the Guitar solo the inclusion of the B7 is a strong indicator that if you were trucking along figuring it in G all along, suddenly it takes a key change  turn.  You can pick up a lot of things in transcribing and Harmonic Breakdown of that song, but it all starts at the Major scale, and being able to break down things in simple keys.

My advice, if you don't know theory, learn it.  If you don't know harmonic Notation, learn it.  Start on smaller easier songs and make sure that you understand how to do those, in a simple diatonic sense.  After a while, study the idea of Parallel Key Changes or borrowed chords, from that Parallel.  With these tools and tips, you can really get underway at understanding the process of figuring out songs and keys.

By the way, I too cut my teeth on Troy's books,  Though I never finished any of them, I did memorize and learn most of the solos in Lead 1, and think he's one of the best out there when it comes to lead guitar techniques.  To date myself a bit...the companion music that I had with the book, at the time I learned these songs...was a tape cassette!  default/smile

Don will no doubt have some more to add to this, but I thought I'd break things down a bit using a Troy song as an example.  In any case, having a strong hold of the fundamentals I covered, will make a huge difference.

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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5

Re: Help with my theory

Instructor wrote:

A is the I
C is a bIII
G is a bVII
D is the IV
and E is the V.

I get this aspect but I lose you a bit from there. Sure the C and the G are from A minor but the D the E and the A are all from A major.

So in my mind, using the above chords I would say this would be in A major using some borrowed chords from the parallel Minor?

Or am I missing the point?

Re: Help with my theory

Olly wrote:
Instructor wrote:

A is the I
C is a bIII
G is a bVII
D is the IV
and E is the V.

I get this aspect but I lose you a bit from there. Sure the C and the G are from A minor but the D the E and the A are all from A major.

So in my mind, using the above chords I would say this would be in A major using some borrowed chords from the parallel Minor?

Or am I missing the point?

When using Power Chords the tonality can be ambiguous.  In the first scenerio I showed that very thing you just said.  It's in A Major with borrowed chords.

But because of the use of C, in this instance I think its actually A Minor, since C is a critical note...its the b3 of A.  Since 3rds are the sole determinant of what makes a chord minor or major, and since there wasnt a C# in this, I would suggest that the C makes it a dead giveaway that its in A Minor.

Look at the chords in A minor and see if we agree:

Am  Bo  C  Dm  Em  F  G 

Under this the A is I  C is IV and Dm (expressed as a power chord) is iv.  (It could also be a D7 which would invoke the A Harmonic Minor) Em is the v.

Thus you have a basic 1,4 5 in Am and C is the III, no borrowed chords, and resolution is to Am.

Did this help?

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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7

Re: Help with my theory

Instructor wrote:

When using Power Chords the tonality can be ambiguous

Sorry I didn't see that it was using powerchords which led to the confusion.

I can understand your logic with regards to the C but personally that would never jump out at me - perhaps due to my limited experience in understanding musical harmony.

Good post though - it got my mind whirring!

Re: Help with my theory

I took a look at Troy's book and it's all in there so I won't repeat everything again. Between that and what Instructor wrote should cover everything pretty well. You also seem to understand how to assign the chords in each progression with roman numerals already so I'm not sure exactly where the problem lies. If you could be more specific where you are having troubles may we could help.

Don't know if this could help or not but I first teach students to look at the minor chords in relation to the major key.

Major key-    C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim,
                     I   II-   III- IV  V  VI-  VII dim

Minor key-    Am, Bdim,  C, Dm, Em, F,  G
                    VI-  VIIdim  I   II-   III- IV  V

As you can see all I did was start on the 6th chord of the major key and spell it out from there. The chords in the keys of A minor and Cmajor contain the exact same chords. The next thing you want to do is rename the Am as I-, Bdim as IIdim or II-  (Bm commonly subbed for Bdim), C as bIII and so on and follow all the same explanations presented by Troy and Instructor.

Don't know it that helps at all. The only other thing is take all the info you have and create some progressions of your own. If you are able to assign the correct roman numerals to the progressions in Troys books then you should be able to take the chords and a create progressions using the same exact formula. Again not sure what exactly you are missing here but try this out and post what it is exactly you don't understand. By the way when I write I- what I mean is one minor. It's a more contemporary way of writing it out as opposed to the classical based lower cased ( i ) way of labeling minor.

Re: Help with my theory

Instructor,

A few years ago I was looking for some method books to use with my metal students and I came across a book I had from the 80's I believe. Guess what it was? Yes the same one you were talking about Metal lead one that had a cassette with it. I have lost the cassette though. I ordered the new one with the cd and rediscovered Troy's stuff again. I never really worked much on that book even though I had it for that long. Now I wish I had back then. I would have improved much more at that time. Anyways I drag that out to show my students for kicks. It's basically the same thing but the titles of the songs are different.

Re: Help with my theory

Don,

Can you explain why that Bm is a common sub for the Bo?

I know of the Bb being a common sub for the dim, making a bVII, when its reharmonized into the C Major.

C Dm Em F G Am Bm C isn't one that I have heard a harmonic analysis of.  The only thing I can think of is the convergence of two keys (C and G - Or conversely Am and Em) which is plausible since they are closely related keys, where the only difference is the F/F#.  And in this case it (F) would still work with G as a bVII.

Where we have a I ii iii IV in C  (C Dm Em F)

and a bVII I ii and iii in G.  (F G Am Bm)

I realize there's a Minor analysis possible as well, But I'm looking at this from the Major side of things.

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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11

Re: Help with my theory

In strict theoretical terms the Bm does not fit in the key but since the B dim is very ugly sounding you can sub both the Bm or Bbmajor. I teach my students these two alternatives. B5 is what you would actually see more being subbed. Take a look at some metal tunes. It's subbed all over the place. Enter Sandman is one that comes strait to mind. It's in the key of E minor so you would have E minor, F#dim and G major. You play a regular F#5 chord. No flattened 5th. They also play the F5 chord in spots which is the bII power chord which along it the bV power chord is used alot in metal tunes to give that more sinister evil sound to the progressions.

The Bdim is just a very ugly sounding chord. With some practice you can get some good use out of it but for beginners they are not going to be able to create something where it will sound too good.

Don't get me wrong I also make sure when they are memorizing the diatonic chords they memorize it using the VII chord as diminished. I just explain these subs to them.

The one thing I ingrain into my students heads is it's called music theory not music rules. If your ear tells you something sounds good then it is good!

12 (edited by Instructor 10-12-10 18:50:45)

Re: Help with my theory

Yeah, a Dim creates a strong leading tone to the I.  A dim also makes a good Passing chord when playing by step.

For Example: Cmaj7 Dbdim Dm7 Ebdim Em7 etc...

Most of the time, I see the dim in vii0 replaced by a bVII, in practice, and this was why I was curious at the Bm sub.  Although I get why, I just would have seen it, as convergence of a C major and G major key, progression wise.

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Help with my theory

To learn theory you have to apply it.  I used to do the same mistake, learn the theory but when it came to improvisation i was thinking what notes to play and i was afraid not to hit any wrong notes.

Just play a backing track and improvise.

REMEMBER: every wrong note you play is half step away from the right note.  So it is not such a big deal default/wink

Select a scale you want to learn and start using it over some backing tracks.  Combine the scales with some ear training and your set to go.

Read this article  about  ear training with intervals. It really helps. http://www.guitarlearningtips.org/ear-t … intervals/

www.guitarlearningtips.org - my website


The Guitar Blueprint to Success - my free 57 pages and 6 chapter Ebook

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Re: Help with my theory

Hello,

I am also new in this forum, this is my first post.

A is the I
C is a bIII
G is a bVII
D is the IV
E is the V

Amiya Foster

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