1 (edited by Instructor 19-12-10 22:59:15)

Topic: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Not long ago, a band I have been helping out played their second show. 

There were a lot of people there and, of course, friends.

Musically I think we were okay.  There are definitely differences between the musicians abilities and skill sets, within the band, and I think it showed as a whole. Nonetheless people came and said we were great.  I videoed the show to see for myself, and I know we didnt get honest and complete feedback from the show.  (What would you tell your friend on a private phone call in a different state who didn't know the band, of your experience?)  THAT is what I'd call true heart-level feedback.

The point I make is, your friends are not reliable, their role is to support you, thats what friends do, and people will be polite.  There are very few of your friends that will tell you if you bombed.  Thus, you are isolated from real feedback. 

But its not their job to give you the brutal truth, it's our job to discover and learn what works and what doesn't.

This thread is for those who would like access to an opinion about their music.  Post it up if you'd like to hear honest feedback from someone that's not your friend, or family, and has nothing to offer except feedback given in the interest of spurring you on, and helping you to improve.

In each case, I will dissect the song, listen to it, give impressions as a whole, point out problems, suggest solutions, and if you have ears to hear and are able to recieve and take feedback, then it's my hope that your music as a whole can benefit.

I say this as a singer songwriter, and I too crave this kind of feedback from others.  It can be maddening to be around those who "Love me" because their feedback is colored, and those who are in direct contact, would be polite.  As a singer songwriter, I lack the complete objectivity to judge my own work.  So feed back from others is very important. 

It makes sense though.  When I play I have no idea how a crowd will hear the music.  It goes out to hundreds of ears and each one has an opinion.  When I hear someone's song, I have a much more definite idea of whats right or wrong with it, because I have only one set of ears which matter, mine.

Since I don't write for myself to hear, but for others to hear, this honest assessment of my music is a very important piece of information that I have no access to.

This thread dispenses with this blind spot. 

With access to someone's honest truth/opinions, it can be humbling and tough to hear.  Too often we WANT to hear, that was great, and we arent prepared or particularly willing to hear that something that we did was lacking.

I'd be happy to hear anyones song or riff or ideas, if they'd like honest feedback, so long as we can still remain friends, and you understand that it's in the spirit of helping, and making one better so that they don't have to exist within the blind spot of honest feedback.

Post here if you'd like to know...

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

at the end of the day any comment / suggestion / advice etc is purely an opinion
nobody can say what a good song is  or  what a bad song is....if you dont like a song
that doesnt make it  a bad song .....but what is a bad song ..if they exist...

its like paintings ......i think picasso's painting are the biggest load of toss since paint was invented
...am i right or wrong ...no matter what any nob headed paint critic says..to me ther're the biggest
load of shite since shite...opinion is not debatable

how can a individuals  interpretations of  music be judged???

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3

Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

I agree with you Polyal regarding the art of songwriting itself though the points that Instructor makes can be valid for things like playing out of tune, hitting bum notes, poor timing or phrasing bad recording mixes which are all regarding the production of the song rather than the songwriting process.

Whilst good or bad songs are only good or bad in the mind of the listener, there is the point of a well written song and this is open to critique a little more.

Genuine opinions are good for the songwriter I think as well. Certainly if you have enough of them. If loads of people say your song is monotonous and lacks any kind of meaning or direction, sure, there may be one or two people that like that sort of thing, but if generally people don't for those reasons , and it is not your intention to create a monotonous, non meaningful directionless piece then this criticism could be valuable.

So Instructor I hope people do contribute to this thread. I am not a good critic as every song I have come to love I didn't like in the first instance but I will happily open my mind and join in. Maybe you could post some of your work?

Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

polyal wrote:

at the end of the day any comment / suggestion / advice etc is purely an opinion
nobody can say what a good song is  or  what a bad song is....if you dont like a song
that doesnt make it  a bad song .....but what is a bad song ..if they exist...

its like paintings ......i think picasso's painting are the biggest load of toss since paint was invented
...am i right or wrong ...no matter what any nob headed paint critic says..to me ther're the biggest
load of shite since shite...opinion is not debatable

how can a individuals  interpretations of  music be judged???

You're getting philosophical here and thats not the point.  The point isn't to give you some absolute truth to your music, its to give you insight as to how one person received it, and then take from it what you will.  This only applies to those who want to know what someone else might think of their music, not warm themselves with insulated comments from polite people and friends.

You miss the point.  Under your reasoning, then all songs may be called perfect and everything around it is just opinions, but the song itself is perfect, and stays that way.

It doesn't matter if my guitar is out of tune, out of key, out of pitch... out of everything, its perfect, and everything else is relative.

Nice thought but it has no influence in the real world. 

In the real world music is judged all the time, and if we play for others, then they too will have an opinion of some kind.

At some point enough consensus of opinion, validates an overall trend.  Enough people liked Picasso and ascribed value to it, therefore your opinion held no sway on the matter and has zero influence or power except to you.

If you simply don't care how your music reached others then this thread for you is of no benefit.

But if you'd like an objective opinion, then post up, because I have no reason to be polite and lie to you to save feelings or to have a slanted perspective  because you are my buddy.

I'd suggest that unless you never want your music to get farther than your friends and family, then there is some benefit to knowing how a complete stranger might perceive your music, and especially if they offer direct feedback, you can take it or leave it, but at least you get a glimpse past the blind spots that we all have as writers. 

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

I can't upload mp3's apparently it keeps saying that it failed.   So here's a link to my Profile on UG, where the song is.

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/Sean0913/

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

it has to be assumed that in this instance that the guitar is perfectly in tune played perfectly in time with no bum notes..if any of these conditions apply then its not fair on the listener to judge the song

but ....many a wounderful song ( in my sole opinion ) has been  rendered with a very lacklustre performance

and perhaps thats the  benchmark...take away the slick performance  the bells and whistles
the phil spectre recording the silky vocals...play it slightly out of tune sing it a bit flat

if its a good melody ........job done...you will know

listen to lenon and mccartney

some fantastic music exists but this is a combination of musicianship/recording techniques/arrangements
and imagination....the song is just a part of brew

a good melody doesnt need any of this

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7

Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Instructor wrote:

I can't upload mp3's apparently it keeps saying that it failed.   So here's a link to my Profile on UG, where the song is.

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/Sean0913/

I'm surprised to see in your profile on UG, that you own a FENDER Strat, (Japanese) and a FENDER M80 212 Amp.   default/roll

I didn't get where I am today,
by being somewhere else.

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8

Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Instructor - I do actually like your song. It sounds well written to me. How was this song first born? lyric melody or that nice rhythmic chord progression?

Have you written many more?

Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

alun wrote:
Instructor wrote:

I can't upload mp3's apparently it keeps saying that it failed.   So here's a link to my Profile on UG, where the song is.

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/Sean0913/

I'm surprised to see in your profile on UG, that you own a FENDER Strat, (Japanese) and a FENDER M80 212 Amp.   default/roll

Yeah well I've had them for many years.  The M80 was a gift early on from my father, and has not been played in about 20 years, the Strat was a gift from a 96 year old Luthier friend out of Ft Worth, by the name of Willard Morton, that I made in the early 90's, who went over it with a fine toothed comb, and did a ton of upgrades to it, but has been played last about 8 years ago.

Are there any questions that you have, or was there a point you were wanting to make?   I intentionally did not post any more detailed opinions on Fender out of respect to you, sir, so, I am hoping that you aren't taking this occasion to snipe at me, unless you'd be interested in resuscitation of that discussion.

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

i have a japanese strat which i use for gigs and recording...i am led to believe  they are quite sort after?
whats the difference between strats made on different continents ( disregarding price )

i thought the american strats ( usa ) were the bees knees...i bet in a dark room no one could tell
a 'dogs bollx' strat from one made in any 4th world country if it was set up right

and in my opinion things dont sound any better or worse they just sound different

else nobody would ever play a banjo

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Olly wrote:

Instructor - I do actually like your song. It sounds well written to me. How was this song first born? lyric melody or that nice rhythmic chord progression?

Have you written many more?

Thanks, Olly

The song was first born out of the progression and melody that I heard in my head almost at the same time.  I didnt set out to write it, it sort of just happened.  Thats how all of my songs came together.  The song was unfinished for about 4 months, until one day I was listening to it and the bridge appeared in my mind, and I just followed it.  The bridge really helped that song, otherwise, I don't know that it would ever have happened.

I have about 40 songs in different stages of completeness, and when I do my sets of originals, I have about 12-13 that I perform, and out of those there are a few that I feel are at the full potential. 

The thing is, and this is getting to what this topic is about, I have several songs that are not really, in my opinion, very good, at least not to where Im connecting with them, like I'd like.  However I am always surprised to hear over and over how this one particular other song I do is so many peoples' "favorite". 

Its funny to me, and again it underscores the idea, that my inability to be objective, is non existent with regards to my songs.  Its not that I hate that song, it just doesn't feel..."right" or finished, and yet I have no idea what else to do with it  So, its in the list (even when I try to keep it off the list, people yell for it), and I suppose it's a finished song in its own right. 

I have my first solo album in the works since 2008, and it was called "Chances of August", and my friends have jokingly come up with a new title for it since its been taking so long to complete, "Chances of Retirement", as to when it will be finally done!

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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12

Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Are there any questions that you have, or was there a point you were wanting to make?   I intentionally did not post any more detailed opinions on Fender out of respect to you, sir, so, I am hoping that you aren't taking this occasion to snipe at me, unless you'd be interested in resuscitation of that discussion.

Instructor

Yes my question is: How can I become as perfect as you,  default/roll
And the point I want to make is:I think you see yourself a bit above the average human, But I don't think you are. So you just go for it.

I didn't get where I am today,
by being somewhere else.

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

alun wrote:

Are there any questions that you have, or was there a point you were wanting to make?   I intentionally did not post any more detailed opinions on Fender out of respect to you, sir, so, I am hoping that you aren't taking this occasion to snipe at me, unless you'd be interested in resuscitation of that discussion.

Instructor

Yes my question is: How can I become as perfect as you,  default/roll
And the point I want to make is:I think you see yourself a bit above the average human, But I don't think you are. So you just go for it.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, then.  I'm not going to make a problem of yours, into a problem of mine.  I hope you manage to work it out.

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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14 (edited by polyal 18-12-10 15:53:56)

Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

if i said to paul mccartney ...hey paul what do you think of my song ..and he said 'hi al ..long time no see
but i  think its a pile of shite...i,d  say thanks paul but  not as much a pile of shite as half the stuff that you've written ...so whats the plot about criticism ..its a shambles..self indulgent..patronising.  nobody with any intelligence gives a toss ( shouldn't ) about it...stick to opinions ..its innocuous

but even opinions sometimes should be kept to oneself...ermmm!!

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Well then, polyal, if you don't want criticism, why ask for it, from someone?  If you cannot handle hearing what someone thinks, its very simple, don't invite it.  All you'd be demonstrating is someone that cannot take honest criticism, to the point where you had to retaliate by trying to hurt his feelings.  That says more about you than it would about Paul.

This thread is voluntary, isn't it?  If you want to argue merits, cast your vote by simply not posting a song here to hear opinions on.  Seems simple enough.  I even put my own song in the crosshairs to start things out.

But Imagine if you'd said, "OK Paul, thanks for that.  No one wants to write terribly, can you tell me what you didn't like?"  He might have said...

Vocals were predictable,  the mix was of here and here, the song topics been done a million times over and theres nothing new here, it sounds too much like so and so, and I hate that, the guitars were too trebly and hurt my ears, and clashed with the ride and high hat.

And you...might have walked away haveing learned a bit more as to why he didnt like it, maybe youd have heard your music a bit differently as a result and picked up something for the next time. 

We all have choices to make in life, and your choices determine the path that you'll take, and where you end up.  Criticism can be an attack or an opportunity for growth, insight and learning.

There will always be those who are inflexible, and unteachable.   

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

who has the right or ability to criticise? ...opinion is different matter
i dont mind peoples opinions..i welcome them...because thats what they are
to criticise is absolute and nobody is that good to criticise  or am i taking the meaning out of context

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Instructor wrote:

Vocals were predictable,  the mix was of here and here, the song topics been done a million times over and theres nothing new here, it sounds too much like so and so, and I hate that, the guitars were too trebly and hurt my ears, and clashed with the ride and high hat

if this is a criticism ...id probably say  ..that just your opinion ..which you are entitled to
but im not changing it cause thats how i want it...idont like well separated mixes ..they sound plastic
lets change criticism to opinion then i would agree with what you are trying to get across with this thread

the point about paul mccartney is.. i dont want people criticising me unless they are 100% perfect
and nobody is not even sir paul mccartney..ive heard unpublished tracks of his that would burn your
ears ( in my opinion )

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Point taken, Polyal.

Let's then change the word criticism, to opinion as it pertains to this topic and invitation.

Instructor

http://rnbacademy.com

Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

thanks for that...sorry for the aggro
rock on♪♪

can you post some more of your songs that lean on production
rather than ' melody lyric '...if poss....you're a singer song writer ...im a " producer "
i write a backing then get a vocal/melody added after-->by a third party

does this make sense to you..have you ever done this

i can't write a lyric ..save my life

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Poly,

Im not sure what you are saying, sorry. 

Instructor

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Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

i have just spent  30min writing a reply...and then my laptop crashed
will post a reply asap

sorry
polyal

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

when i say production i mean more instrument/effect orientated
ie synths/brass/strings etc etc type of stuff

your posted track is dominant vocal/guitar ..which i suppose is more relevant
to this part of the forum

sorry this is brief

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23 (edited by Instructor 20-12-10 13:46:26)

Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

The only song that's been fully "produced" is the one that I posted. 

Production only makes sense to me, if you are going to be recording the song with that person, and you are in the studio.

I have recordings of all my songs but only as reference and self-made.   None of my songs lean on production, but are guitar and vocal driven.  I have the understanding of my songs such that I know they aren't ready for "prime time" and thats why I haven't released them, outside of performing them live.

I've never written a song to a backing track.  Songs "happen" to me by full inspiration.  If I sit down intentionally to write, it always feels planned and contrived, and I don't claim that kind of talent.  All my songs started out unplanned and were completed by "following what I was hearing in my head".

I have never relied upon anyone else's instrumentation.   To have someone write a part for my song, would feel foreign to me.  I might have musicians sit in on my sessions, but any part they play would have to be true to the feel of the song.  Now I might collaborate with someone on a song thats not mine, but the sole determinant of that would be, can I feel something with it, and sense where it needs to go.

I have probably 40 plus songs.  The thing I like about the songs is they all feel like they work for me, and yet were not written with any influences in mind.  This means a lot to me, because it's something that feels like "me" and not in the style of anyone else, or inspired by someone else's music.  Its just music from inside.  I'm sure that I have "influences" but they are subliminal to me and not consciously intended. 

This is probably better explained from a newspaper Article that was written about my music back in Mid 2009.

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Victoria Guitar Teacher Finding New Role as Singer/Songwriter on the Big Stage

May 15--It all started with a dream of playing acoustic guitar in some small, out-of-the-way coffee place. But it ended up leading to an album and an upcoming solo performance at one of the summer's biggest festivals.

Sean C of Victoria has been playing guitar for 25 years. Busy running Rock N Blues Academy and giving guitar lessons to students, he said he felt as though his own personal development on the guitar had peaked. So, he began to look for something that would challenge him.

"About a year ago, I had a moment when I realized what I really wanted was to connect with people," Sean, 40, said. "I had been playing classic rock blues for quite awhile, but music is a well that has no bottom to it. So, I decided to try singing, which I had never done before, and playing acoustic guitar."

Having never trained as a singer, he said learning to play and sing at the same time was one of the hardest things he's ever had to do musically. On the plus side, it brought to light a whole new musical talent he never knew he had.

"For whatever reason, something in me opened up when I started singing and playing together. Suddenly, I was waking up at 3 a.m. to write down songs," he said. "I'd be walking around the shop singing a tune that just came into my head."

Soon after, he began videotaping himself playing his original songs, and covering others, and posting them on YouTube. With an overwhelming positive response, the videos led to his collaboration with Berklee School of Music graduate Brandon Reyna on an album. And, even though he had only written two songs, he was invited to play at the Port O'Connor Tales & Tunes concert at the end of May, with acts like Paula Nelson (Willie's daughter), Roger Creager, and Jarrod Birmingham, benefiting the Wounded Warriors, a benevolence organization for the Armed Forces personnel who have been injured in battle.

"I mean, who does that? Who agrees to play in front of thousands of people on a big stage, with only two original songs?" he laughed. "But somehow it's all these elements coming together. I didn't set out to do this. I just wanted to play at a coffee shop and not make people leave. I had no clue I'd end up here."

Sean now has 10 original songs ready for the show and for the album titled "Chances of August," which should be done in time for the concert. Although he's a bit nervous to play for a large crowd under his new title of singer/songwriter, it's his passion for the music that keeps him going.

"I'm looking forward to sharing this with people," he said. "It's all acoustic, all very organic music. It just feels like a natural extension of myself."

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Instructor

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Online Guitar Academy

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

i write in collaboration with other people always have done and always will...and i am always well
pleased with the results..it is a shared thing..but i also lean on riffs and production as much as the song itself

i wouldn't tag myself as a songwriter ( or a singer )  although i have written one or two songs
but its original finished tracks that i like to be involved with

thats a result of working in bands and recording studios for donkies years

some of paul simon 's tracks have been created using original backing tracks then adding melody/vocals
and they dont come much better than that

but everybody to their own...there is no right or wrong way it seems

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Re: Post your tune if you'd like to hear an honest opinion

Yep.

Now back to the thread.

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