Connecting the Modes of the Major Scale

GuitarTutorHelp · Post by **GuitarTutorHelp** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:24 am

Here's some helpful ideas I've taught student's when practicing modes. Let's say, for instance you start with A Ionian (A major scale)...

After you ascend in A Ionian >> descend in B dorian, ascend in C# phrygian, descend in D lydian, and so on. If you're not too familiar with the modes then this will sound confusing! Don't worry, we can help in this thread

First, you should learn the mode patterns and order of modes, which are:
1) Ionian (major scale)
2) Dorian
3) Phrygian
4) Lydian
5) Mixolydian
6) Aeolian (natural minor scale)
7) Locrian

I like playing 3 note-per-string patterns built off the 6th string.

Instructor · Post by **Instructor** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:17 am

When you say "Modes" do you mean that you're teaching them to play modally? Or just a shape that you call a mode?

Because 99.9 percent of all music is Major or minor, no modes involved.

Modes come into play over a single drone or a 2 chord vamp that doesn't quite resolve.

Change chords, and not know what you are doing, like calling the V of the Parent Major key, and you've lost the "mode" and are simply playing a major scale extended out. The reason for this, is a Mode is made or lost on it's Resolution.

If I were playing E Phrygian, if I play Em9 to Fmaj7 back and forth indefinitely I'm fine...but it will never "feel or sound" finished or resolved. It will hang. Add a C, or a Bm7b5 or G, Ive just invoked the C major tonality.

If I play over a static drone, I'm fine, I can invoke modal voicings and characteristics, change chords, and you're no longer playing Modes, nor are you playing any modal "scale". It's just been taken by the Major or Minor Key.

Instructor

polyal · Post by **polyal** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:19 pm

can somebody explain the point of modes and give me a practical example in a simple song...

i dont wittingly use modes but i have no problem with my music
..how would it help me.....please reply as if i am a complete beginner ( not too complicated )

polyal · Post by **polyal** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:39 pm

polyal wrote:can somebody explain the point of modes and give me a practical example in a simple song...

etc

prod prod ???

don p · Post by **don p** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:29 am

Although yes you are not necessarily playing a modal progression if say in the key of C you play Em, Am, C, Dm it's much easier when thinking of what to play over it to think I will play E phrygian. That is what you would play if you just played an E drone. To think of it as either an E minor scale with the flattened third is makiing it more complicated then it needs to be. Also to just think of it as playing the A minor scale but E being the root you just loose out on a chance to see the phrygian pattern or whatever mode you want to use. It's good to explain what playing modal really is but sometimes it gets a little much if you take theory too literally. Over a progression like this I would always see my E notes and play an E phrygian over it. I don't really care if it is not a true modal progression. If it works it works. Don't know if I said this on here before but a quote I heard from one of my instructors that really sticks with me is "It's called music theory. Not music rules!"

Post by **olly** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:02 pm

polyal wrote:can somebody explain the point of modes and give me a practical example in a simple song...

I will be attempting to answer your question but I hope that someone else can as my understanding of modes is still very limited to the drone/vamp type progressions where you can clearly hear the modal sound coming out.

don p · Post by **don p** » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:35 pm

One of the simplest ways to hear the different sounds of the modes is to play an open E and play around in each mode. You'll be able to hear how they all sound a bit different from each other. Think of them as different moods instead of modes. Each has a specific mood it conveys. Because of this modes are very important in expressing your self in certain ways.

Say you had a simple E5 and A5 vamp going. You could of course just play E minor over the whole thing if you would like. You could also play A minor over the A going back and forth between the two. You could also play in E minor for awhile over the whole thing and then switch to E phrygian, then maybe E phrygian dominant followed by strait E harmonic minor. They all have a specific sound to them and if used creatively it can make an otherwise dull jam into something full of life!

Also in it's very simplest of forms as I already mentioned in my other post in the key of C major if you play from D to D you are playing D dorian, E to E you are playing E phrygian etc... In the progression I mentioned you could just think of it as playing the A natural minor but keep coming back to the E notes but you may possibly target the A's from time to time because you have A minor in the mind. Why not think of it as E phrygian. Then you can really work the chord tones and play around with the flattened 2nd. It just makes more sense to me to go right to the source.

That is the simplest application but there is so much more you can do with modes.

Instructor · Post by **Instructor** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:31 am

My question to you Don, is even thinking E phrygian how do you get it to sound resolved on E? Because thinking it is one thing, but if you play b2 like its something, but the tonality wants to resolve to C, all you're doing is accenting an F over C, unless you can make it sound like it's resolved on C.

You are absolutely correct, that you can play it over a vamp, or a pedal tone, as long as it never changes. But it takes A LOT more to compose music that is modal.

To add to the confusion Like we didnt have enough of it) there are really 3 ways of looking at modes :

Traditional Modal where a Mode is used over a static tonic. There is no harmony or sound except for the instance of modes as they are played over the Drone.

Diatonic Modal: where there is Harmony within the mode, using a static Vamp where the modal chord functioned as the I chord, or else composed entirely of chords derived from that mode. C Major7#11 for example.

Modern Modes: The most difficult because its a mix of chords in a key connected to the mode, and chords that are NOT connected to the mode. The most obvious question that the average user would be "OK so how can I mix the two then?" The weight of the knowledge required for a strong and intelligent application of this, is beyond the scope of any article that I can write, and it is a very good reason why I teach Modes LAST of all, because the prerequisite knowledge is pretty thick.

So when you ask about Modes, the answer is there are many ways that modes can be applied, but the first one, Traditional is the most "Sure fire" way. Vamps that are understood by the guitarist are the other. Finally, playing a different mode for each chord is another approach. These are the most accessible approaches for a majority of players.

Instructor

don p · Post by **don p** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:26 am

Instructor my answer to you is my ears. Knowing theory is great and I love learning it but I also know when to set it aside and let my ears take over. When I'm playing I don't think of what tone resolves to what or anything else for the most part. I'm trying to concentrate on a good melody, lick or something else musical. Knowing this stuff is a powerful tool but you have to also have the power to shut it off and let things flow naturally!

The flat 2nd is actually an avoid note for Em. It's also the note that gives the mode it's distinct sound. It's actually an avoid note for the Am and the C chords. I use the tone to create tension over these chords. I can go to E,C or whatever note I want. I look at it as a way to play around with the sound and giving a solo a little different sound as opposed to thinking of what exact tone it should resolve to. Sometimes it works great and others not so great but as long as you use your ears you will come out fine in the end.

Learning this stuff I think is very important and will make you a better player. At the risk of sounding cliche
you need to learn this stuff and then forget it. Troy Stetina said somewhere in one of his books, I think it may be Fretboard Mastery, that he doesn't even think of the scales anymore. He plays strictly what is going through his head. Of course he has the sounds of all the scales and modes ingrained into his head so he knows what these scales sound like. The point here is learning this stuff allows you to get to this point so I'm not recommending anybody to forget theory and strictly use your ears. Learn this stuff but know when to not be held back because such and such is not supposed to work because theory says it's note supposed to work that way. If you dig deep enough you can most likely find a reason why such and such would work. In the end if it sounds good then it is good! Who cares what the theory books say!

Instructor · Post by **Instructor** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:44 pm

Don you're absolutely correct, about the mi 2 dissonance with F next to E and also the 4 in C, against the E, but your ear is exactly what I was getting at. You're using the modes in the way that I think they are best used. Not in terms of "forgetting them" because I don't think you or Troy are doing that, but you've learned the "essential" characteristic tones, of the Modes so that you can call them at will, and the ear knowledge, to use them to invoke anything that you want.

If you look at the Major Scale, all the notes of a Mixo are the exact same but one - so why do you need to memorize those, right? All you need to do, is know where to play the b7 because its the only note that really matters from a stock Major scale, now you can conjure that at will to get an effect that you are after. Although many people would look at these notes as chromatic accidentals in a Major key, the point is, you're using your ear and having a grand time. Who cares what others think?

A lot of seasoned pros say "Play the 3's and 7's and you're set".

Great post, I agree 10-fold, and in my opinion this should be the end game of learning modes. Here's a thought:

When a new guitarist learns a scale, he sees it as a collection of the notes that "will" be played. When a guy that's come a bit further, looks at all of this, he sees it as notes that you "might" play if you wanted to.

When I look at modes, beyond the scale approach, I like the chordal possibilities which augment the modal properties, thats where I find things a lot tastier. Even a simple G to F/G vamp can be a ton of fun.

Instructor

don p · Post by **don p** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:47 pm

I do agree that I can quickly tell you what tone is what under each chord. This is something I struggled with for awhile. I thought I would never get this down but now it's pretty much second nature. I'm glad I put the work in.

Yes the 3's and 7's are the most important tones. They give each chord their distinct sound and you can build anywhere from there. Students are always surprised when I explain that you don't even need the root in the chord when playing them.

The thing is this is something that comes later on. For a student in the beginning to intermediate stages I think they should learn the modes before getting into all this. They learn the major scale and minor scale first. I explain that these are actually two of the modes themselves. The Ionian and Aeolian. Then I just explain that again in the key of C major you play D to D you are playing dorian, E to E phrygian and so on. I may mention about using certain chords to play in a true modal way but I won't get into it because it's just to confusing to a student at this stage.

If someone plays a progression that evolves around the D chord in the key of C major I don't think it's the best approach to just tell them to play the C major scale and target the 7th. For me this goes along with targetting the other chord tones which should be taught later on. To me it's makes more sense to have them learn the D dorian. Yes this is the same as the C major scale but they can now play lines between the two D's instead of having the major scale of C to C but playing the different tones. To me this can get more confusing. Whether you are playing a true modal progression or not does not change the fact that you are playing a D dorian when you play the D to D in a major scale. I think it is much easier if I were playing a progression with the D as the tonic chord to just tell them to play the D dorian scale. They can then go to any D note and play a dorian scale from there. Plain and simple. If I were to tell them play the C major scale they would most likely play licks that evolve more around the C major and totally forget about the chord tones of D except the C which would be the b7th. The root note of the D would most likely be passed over and almost certainly the b3rd F would be past over. What do you do next? You need to explain the whole concept of targetting chord tones which is a whole other big subject to cover. To get them to get used to playing D dorian and go strait to that is a much easier way to approach it. If they get used to playing the actual patterns of the modes then by the time we get to what a true modal progression is or how to use them in more creative situations they already have the patterns down and can understand what I'm teaching them much easier.

I really have no problems at all teaching the modes to my students. I'm really confused when I here that teachers have problems getting them to understand the modes. If you start simple and build up it shouldn't be a problem.

Instructor · Post by **Instructor** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:40 am

My question to you, then Don, is how do you have the student take the chords out of C Major, and focus on the D, and keep the resolution on a D once they start playing chords?

By the way when you say Dorian, am I right to assume you are referring to Dm as the chord that you are "centering upon" as opposed to a D, or do you mean D as a single note, like a drone?

The challenge of making a background progression Based off the chords in C Major, feel like its staying on D Dorian, would be the hard part, so I'm interested in how you manage to make it centered upon D. Leaving out the F makes sense, as a start.

It sounds like you have a dedicated intentional approach to this, and I salute you.

Instructor

don p · Post by **don p** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:42 pm

First yes I meant Dm. When I have them jam with say D dorian I'll make a hard rock/metal progression with power chords. I just stay on D5 for a measure and throw in other 5th chords in measure two. Yes with some of them according to strict theory the resolution would be to the C chord I suppose but it comes back to throwing away the theory book and letting your ears tell you what to do. The students job is to concentrate on playing the dorian scale. That is the goal for them at this point. Not to get into a deep discussion about chord resolution. I'm trying to teach them to play the patterns of the modes.

don p · Post by **don p** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:19 pm

If you would like to know the reason I would use dorian I'll explain. Say I had a progression of Dm for a measure and the next measure I have Em and F. The next measure I have Dm for a measure followed by Em and C for a half a measure each. The Dm chord dominates the whole progression. What I mean is It starts with the Dm for one measure and comes back in at the third measure for a complete measure. The other chords last for a half measure a piece. I look at these other chords as more passing chords.

Since the focal point of the progression revolves around D and I'll be targeting the chord tones for Dm for two out of the four measures it makes more sense to me to think of this as Dorian. If I were to think of this as just playing the C major scale I would tend to associate it with the chord tones of C major which would be tension tones over the Dm chord except of course the C note itself. Also since the C chord only comes up in half a measure out of four full measure the C is not the focal point of the progression. I would target the chord tones for C when it came around or actually maybe some of the tension tones so it doesn't sound at rest.

So my approach is more from the chord tones but since Dm is the focal point of the progression I tend to think dorian. You could of course think C major and target the tones in the same way I was talking about since C major and D dorian are the same exact notes but again because of the progression consisting mostly of Dm I think dorian. I know you have cadences that pull towards chords like if I played Dm,G7 to C it would be common to think of this as playing the C major scale and this would be correct. For me it would depend on how long the chords are being played. Again if I had two measures of Dm, a measure of G7 and a measure of C I would still think more of D dorian and then targetting the chord tones over the G7 and the C. I could also think of switching the modes to mixolydian over the G7 and ionian over the C. I don't really think in this way though. I would think of my base being dorian and then target the chord tones for the rest. This way if for some reason I get lost I can find my D and play my dorian. Since D is played for two measures it's a safe place to go to. If C was played for two measures then the major scale (ionian) would be the base for me.

Again I don't really care if the progression is a modal progression or not. If I want to take that approach, which I also like to do, then that is good but if there is a progression made up from a jam without regards to what chord pulls to what I'll take the chord that is the tonal center and play the mode that matches up with the diatonic chord. I want to jam not think of what the theory books are telling me what to do at that point. When I'm composing that's a different matter. That's were I'll start to think more on the theoretical side at times.

Instructor · Post by **Instructor** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:49 pm

First of all, I think they key distinction that you have made, is that you are "Teaching them to play the patterns" of modes, which I entirely agree with. Once you know all the patterns you know all the patterns for every mode.

Your thoughts about using the Dm in a predominant role in a progression for purposes of training the student, and looking at that in Dorian, is at the very least...intriguing to me. I cant say anything more about it, because Ive never heard what that sounds like when you teach it, it would be cool to be a fly on the wall when you do this.

I have used the Dm in a vamp, in the sense that Might do Dmin to Dmin 9 To Dm7 etc, but all witht he central tonality of D so that the resolution feels firmly placed on D.

I've also taken the D minor blues and added a B note, ala Carlos Santana, over the Dmin chord.

Ive used the same idea to demonstrate how quickly the natural inclination to jump to C is "Hijacked" and how the finality of the Dorian is "lost" in that instant. Your approach seems to say, push ahead, ignore that finality and focus on the chord tones of that Dm stubbornly...and that's what I find intriguing. I may try that, just to see if it sounds "together".

Whatever you do, that approach seems to work for you, and your students benefit, and thats the important part. I just wish I could hear what that music/improv sounds like, when you teach it

Instructor

don p · Post by **don p** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:33 pm

Again put aside your theory book and just try it. It will sound completely "together" What could sound more solid over a Dm chord then one of it's chord tones?

It sounds fine when my students play it so I would think you should have no problems. Remember that whether you call the scale you are playing a C major scale or the D dorian you are playing the same exact notes! I don't think you mean to suggest I ignore the chord tones for Dm when the Dm is being played? Especially if I'm playing it for two full measure?

don p · Post by **don p** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:14 pm

Don't get me wrong Instuctor. You have very valid points and knowing what chords and tones pull to what is a great thing to know. I suggest everybody learn this stuff! I just think sometimes theory can get taken a little too literally. When it comes to a point where you say I can't do that even though it sounds fine when you play it things are going a bit to far. It can end up hurting your playing instead of improving.

I remember when I was younger and a theory fanatic I used to tell people what they were playing was wrong. You can't do that! But why? This one guy I was playing with played something that sounded pretty cool and he showed it to me. I then analyzed it and told him he was playing in and out of key. He needed to adjust it a bit to fit into the correct theory side of music. I wish I could remember more of the specifics but he refused and I'm glad he did. It would have ruined the whole feel of what he played. If I would have kept digging more and more I could have most likely rationalized in theory what he was doing. Why bother though. What he played sounded cool and that was good enough.

The way I teach my students is to show them the correct theoretical part of things but also explain that you can really play just about anything. I know I keep saying this but it's a key point I drill into my students. You learn the rules and then adjust them in any way you want. Play the out of key chord. Play the note that is supposed to sound horrible. If you play around enough you can make it work and create something more interesting the if you stuck with the "rules" of theory.

So again what you are saying is important stuff. I just think it's important to also tell them that the ear is the final judge no matter what I or any music theory book tells them they are supposed to play.

Instructor · Post by **Instructor** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:56 pm

I hope you don't misunderstand me, and I worry you might have. I expressly stand against telling people that what they are playing is "wrong". In fact, I believe there are no wrong notes, just notes that create tension and notes that resolve tension. Personally the off notes are the ones which I enjoy the most, as it bends the ear.

But where my conflict is surfacing, is "what is what we are doing, called"? If it's our own adaptation and decision of what "playing with modes are", and it really pans out to playing and experimenting with shapes and sounds out of mode patterns, that's one thing.

Is that playing "modally"? That's a question that I have to be able to honestly consider the answer to. There's no conflict with me representing a dronal idea as Modal playing. There's no conflict with a 2 chord vamp as Modal playing.

Now what I have to answer, and do so ethically, is how do I represent playing over chords which want to strongly resolve to Major, as "being modal", except to look at it as an ongoing continuation of the major scale, that wants to resolve on the I?

Does that make sense? It's all about how *I* represent something when I teach it to someone else. How others do it, is not something that I am here to judge, I just don't want to contribute to the vast amounts of misinformation already out there.

Hope this erases any thoughts that I consider your way to be wrong.

Instructor

don p · Post by **don p** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:00 am

I never took it as you saying my way is wrong. I'm pretty confident in my own way of doing it. As you know I have formal training so I know the so called "rules". I just think that you do not need to stick with the major scale when you are not playing modally. Playing to a modal vamp is a way to bring out the distinct sound of the modes but they still are used in regular diatonic situations. It is not just the major or minor scale and that's it. I guess what I'm saying in a nutshell is you can still play the modes without playing 100% modally.

don p · Post by **don p** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:17 am

I actually do have one guy I think is ready to handle the whole playing modal concept. This thread gives me some good idea's on area's we can delve into. I wish I had more students like this then the kids. Don't get me wrong they can be fun but teaching the same melodies and chords over and over get old. I love it when I can dig in deep with a student!

Post by **olly** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:35 pm

This is a very interesting thread.

Don - just so I understand are you saying that in a I IV V progression (as an example) you are teaching the students that over I play Ionian over the IV play Lydian, over the V play Mixolydian? Even though the whole progression is resolving to the I chord?

Or have I missed your point?...

don p · Post by **don p** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:35 pm

No I wouldn't approach it like that although you could look at it like that if you wanted to. The notes of the major scale and all of the modes are exactly the same notes. So in essence your are playing those modes over the chords. In this case I would just think and teach to play the major scale over the complete progression.

If I hung on the V chord for two measures then the IV for one followed by the I for one measure I would then go for the Mixolydian over the V chord and go after the tones from there on the IV and I chord playing around with chord tones and tension tones to pull to the I chord. The way I use modes in a non modal progression is to use this as a base. If there is a G played for two measures then an F followed by a C. I would go directly to the G note, or possible one of the other chord tones, to start with. I can see the Mixolydian patterns all over the neck. I can mix the mixolydian and G pentatonic. Since I'm in the mindset of Mixolydian I'm thinking automatically chord tones of G and since there are two measures of G this would make sense. In my own playing I would then play around with chord tones and tension tones over the F and finally the C.

If I were teaching it to a student that knows nothing about chord tones and how things resolve I would also teach them to start with the mixolydian in this case, play around and use his ear and then try to target the C over the C or play major type licks when the C chord comes around. That would be the first step. They are getting practice with the mixolydian scale and then most likely questions would come up of why switch over to the C note and major scale licks over the C chord. This then would open the door to get more deeper into the theory side of what we are doing. I like to start it as simple as possible and go from there. My student is here so I'm off. See ya!

Back again!

My approach to modes is at first more pattern based then function based. I want my students to get used to the mode patterns and also be able to play them in real life situations. I don't want to just use them when a modal progression is being played. This is something they at first are not ready to comprehend. If they can just jam to a progression using a mode in the same way they would the major scale or the minor scale we are in a good position when it comes time to talk about subjects like actual modal playing. Also it makes it a little less intimidating when I explain thay the major and minor scale they knowalready is actually two out of the 7 modes. So they already have two down!