Connecting the Modes of the Major Scale

can somebody explain the point of modes and give me a practical example in a simple song...

i dont wittingly use modes but i have no problem with my music
..how would it help me.....please reply as if i am a complete beginner ( not too complicated )

Although yes you are not necessarily playing a modal progression if say in the key of C you play Em, Am, C, Dm it's much easier when thinking of what to play over it to think I will play E phrygian.  That is what you would play if you just played an E drone. To think of it as either an E minor scale with the flattened third is makiing it more complicated then it needs to be. Also to just think of it as playing the A minor scale but E being the root you just loose out on a chance to see the phrygian pattern or whatever mode you want to use. It's good to explain what playing modal really is but sometimes it gets a little much if you take theory too literally. Over a progression like this I would always see my E notes and play an E phrygian over it. I don't really care if it is not a true modal progression. If it works it works. Don't know if I said this on here before but a quote I heard from one of my instructors that really sticks with me is "It's called music theory. Not music rules!"

One of the simplest ways to hear the different sounds of the modes is to play an open E and play around in each mode. You'll be able to hear how they all sound a bit different from each other. Think of them as different moods instead of modes. Each has a specific mood it conveys. Because of this modes are very important in expressing your self in certain ways.

Say you had a simple E5 and A5 vamp going. You could of course just play E minor over the whole thing if you would like. You could also play A minor over the A going back and forth between the two. You could also play in E minor for awhile over the whole thing and then switch to E phrygian, then maybe E phrygian dominant followed by strait E harmonic minor. They all have a specific sound to them and if used creatively it can make an otherwise dull jam into something full of life!

Also in it's very simplest of forms as I already mentioned in my other post in the key of C major if you play from D to D you are playing D dorian, E to E you are playing E phrygian etc...   In the progression I mentioned you could just think of it as playing the A natural minor but keep coming back to the E notes but you may possibly target the A's from time to time because you have A  minor in the mind. Why not think of it as E phrygian. Then you can really work the chord tones and play around with the flattened 2nd. It just makes more sense to me to go right to the source.

That is the simplest application but there is so much more you can do with modes.

Instructor my answer to you is my ears. Knowing theory is great and I love learning it but I also know when to set it aside and let my ears take over. When I'm playing I don't think of what tone resolves to what or anything else for the most part. I'm trying to concentrate on a good melody, lick or something else musical. Knowing this stuff is a powerful tool but you have to also have the power to shut it off and let things flow naturally!

The flat 2nd is actually an avoid note for Em. It's also the note that gives the mode it's distinct sound. It's actually an avoid note for the Am and the C chords. I use the tone to create tension over these chords. I can go to E,C or whatever note I want. I look at it as a way to play around with the sound and giving a solo a little different sound as opposed to thinking of what exact tone it should resolve to. Sometimes it works great and others not so great but as long as you use your ears you will come out fine in the end.

Learning this stuff I think is very important and will make you a better player. At the risk of sounding cliche
you need to learn this stuff and then forget it. Troy Stetina said somewhere in one of his books, I think it may be Fretboard Mastery, that he doesn't even think of the scales anymore. He plays strictly what is going through his head. Of course he has the sounds of all the scales and modes ingrained into his head so he knows what these scales sound like. The point here is learning this stuff allows you to get to this point so I'm not recommending anybody to forget theory and strictly use your ears. Learn this stuff but know when to not be held back because such and such is not supposed to work because theory says it's note supposed to work that way. If you dig deep enough you can most likely find a reason why such and such would work. In the end if it sounds good then it is good! Who cares what the theory books say!

I do agree that I can quickly tell you what tone is what under each chord. This is something I struggled with for awhile. I thought I would never get this down but now it's pretty much second nature. I'm glad I put the work in.

Yes the 3's and 7's are the most important tones. They give each chord their distinct sound and you can build anywhere from there. Students are always surprised when I explain that you don't even need the root in the chord when playing them.

The thing is this is something that comes later on. For a student in the beginning to intermediate stages I think they should learn the modes before getting into all this. They learn the major scale and minor scale first. I explain that these are actually two of the modes themselves. The Ionian and Aeolian. Then I just explain that again in the key of C major you play D to D you are playing dorian, E to E phrygian and so on. I may mention about using certain chords to play in a true modal way but I won't get into it because it's just to confusing to a student at this stage.

If someone plays a progression that evolves around the D chord in the key of C major I don't think it's the best approach to just tell them to play the C major scale and target the 7th. For me this goes along with targetting the other chord tones which should be taught later on. To me it's makes more sense to have them learn the D dorian. Yes this is the same as the C major scale but they can now play lines between the two D's instead of having the major scale of C to C  but playing the different tones. To me this can get more confusing. Whether you are playing a true modal progression or not does not change the fact that you are playing a D dorian when you play the D to D in a major scale. I think it is much easier if I were playing a progression with the D as the tonic chord to just tell them to play the D dorian scale. They can then go to any D note and play a dorian scale from there. Plain and simple. If I were to tell them play the C major scale they would most likely play licks  that evolve more around the C major and totally forget about the chord tones of D except the C which would be the b7th. The root note of the D would most likely be passed over and almost certainly the b3rd F would be past over. What do you do next? You need to explain the whole concept of targetting chord tones which is a whole other big subject to cover. To get them to get used to playing D dorian and go strait to that is a much easier way to approach it. If they get used to playing the actual patterns of the modes then by the time we get to what a true modal progression is or how to use them in more creative situations they already have the patterns down and can understand what I'm teaching them much easier.

I really have no problems at all teaching the modes to my students. I'm really confused when I here that teachers have problems getting them to understand the modes. If you start simple and build up it shouldn't be a problem.

First yes I meant Dm. When I have them jam with say D dorian I'll make a hard rock/metal progression with power chords. I just stay on D5 for a measure and throw in other 5th chords in measure two. Yes with some of them according to strict theory the resolution would be to the C chord I suppose but it comes back to throwing away the theory book and letting your ears tell you what to do. The students job is to concentrate on playing the dorian scale. That is the goal for them at this point. Not to get into a deep discussion about chord resolution. I'm trying to teach them to play the patterns of the modes.

First of all, I think they key distinction that you have made, is that you are "Teaching them to play the patterns" of modes, which I entirely agree with.  Once you know all the patterns you know all the patterns for every mode.

Your thoughts about using the Dm in a predominant role in a progression for purposes of training the student, and looking at that in Dorian, is at the very least...intriguing to me.  I cant say anything more about it, because Ive never heard what that sounds like when you teach it, it would be cool to be a fly on the wall when you do this. 

I have used the Dm in a vamp, in the sense that Might do Dmin to Dmin 9 To Dm7 etc, but all witht he central tonality of D so that the resolution feels firmly placed on D.

I've also taken the D minor blues and added a B note, ala Carlos Santana, over the Dmin chord.

Ive used the same idea to demonstrate how quickly the natural inclination to jump to C is "Hijacked" and how the finality of the Dorian is "lost" in that instant.  Your approach seems to say, push ahead, ignore that finality and focus on the chord tones of that Dm stubbornly...and that's what I find intriguing.  I may try that, just to see if it sounds "together".

Whatever you do, that approach seems to work for you, and your students benefit, and thats the important part.  I just wish I could hear what that music/improv sounds like, when you teach it

Instructor

Don't get me wrong Instuctor. You have very valid points and knowing what chords and tones pull to what is a great thing to know. I suggest everybody learn this stuff! I just think sometimes theory can get taken a little too literally. When it comes to a point where you say I can't do that even though it sounds fine when you play it things are going a bit to far. It can end up hurting your playing instead of improving.

I remember when I was younger and a theory fanatic I used to tell people what they were playing was wrong. You can't do that! But why? This one guy I was playing with played something that sounded pretty cool and he showed it to me. I then analyzed it and told him he was playing in and out of key. He needed to adjust it a bit to fit into the correct theory side of music. I wish I could remember more of the specifics but he refused and I'm glad he did. It would have ruined the whole feel of what he played. If I would have kept digging more and more I could have most likely rationalized in theory what he was doing. Why bother though. What he played sounded cool and that was good enough.

The way I teach my students is to show them the correct theoretical part of things but also explain that you can really play just about anything. I know I keep saying this but it's a key point I drill into my students. You learn the rules and then adjust them in any way you want. Play the out of key chord. Play the note that is supposed to sound horrible. If you play around enough you can make it work and create something more interesting the if you stuck with the "rules" of theory.

So again what you are saying is important stuff. I just think it's important to also tell them that the ear is the final judge no matter what I or any music theory book tells them they are supposed to play.

I never took it as you saying my way is wrong. I'm pretty confident in my own way of doing it. As you know I have formal training so I know the so called "rules".  I just think that you do not need to stick with the major scale when you are not playing modally. Playing to a modal vamp is a way to bring out the distinct sound of the modes but they still are used in regular diatonic situations. It is not just the major or minor scale and that's it.  I guess what I'm saying in a nutshell is you can still play the modes without playing 100% modally.

This is a very interesting thread.

Don - just so I understand are you saying that in a I IV V progression (as an example) you are teaching the students that over I play Ionian over the IV play Lydian, over the V play Mixolydian? Even though the whole progression is resolving to the I chord?

Or have I missed your point?...